--- Here's the complete (or reasonably complete) text of the "Moby flamewar" which raged on USENET's alt.rave during October & November of 1993. Prior to the posts archive here, there had been some discussion about the nature of live performance in techno, and quite a few persons had stories of having seen Moby perform "live" -- syncing to a DAT player and banging on unplugged keyboards while dancing around. Evidently one of Moby's friends mentioned the discussion to him, and Moby's response was the first post you see below. Moby now has an Internet account with news access and his posts have been much less dramatic as he gains experience with the net. (by the way, the "Joe" referred to in Moby's first post is Joe LeSesne, who records under the name "1.8.7.", and who has been a vocal critic of Moby - he made a remark to the effect that Moby was probably beating on a cardboard keyboard...) ----- From: trance9@clarknet.clark.net (Trance 9) Subject: Moby's post Date: 9 Oct 1993 20:51:28 -0400 Moby wanted me to post this on the net, If you have any response e mail them to me and i will make sure that he gets them. Michael Meacham (trance9@clark.net) the tour is called 'see the light'. this title was thought up by scotto. my friend paul said 'why not call it raved and confused?' but sadly the artwork had already gone out. feel free to use 'raved and confused' as a title if you so choose. acts are orbital, aphex twin, vapour space (cool techno from rochester), dj tim from utah saints, db from nasa, and me (moby). dates are dc, new york, boston, montreal, toronto, detroit, chicago, denver, las vegas (?), phoenix (?), tijuana(?), san diego (?), la, san fran. i'm heading out now to tour germany and france with front 242, hopefully their fans won't kill me. now, regarding this whole live vs dat debate...my shows in the past have relied on dat for drums, samples, etc. this show will be more live, but basically, who cares? would you rather watch a totally 'live' and totally boring act that doesn't even break a sweat or an act that puts things on dat and puts on a good show? acts that use dat for part or all of their show are - depeche mode, nine inch nails, meat beat manifesto, 808 state, moby, n-joi, etc. acts that don't use dat - grateful dead, chick corea, yes, james taylor, etc. my point is that i would rather be entertained by an act that maybe has some things (samples, time code, etc) on dat than be bored to tears by a band (techno or otherwise) that does everything 'live'. people who make an issue out of 'is it live?' techno are dangerously reminiscent of people who can descibe eric clapton's guitar solos in depth and who dismissed punk, techno, hip-hop, (and jazz and rock and roll for that matter) as not being valid because you didn't need a masters degree in music theory to appreciate them. there, that's my diatribe for today. note to joe - my keyboard's not made of cardboard, it's a fully functioning multi timbral yamaha sy35 capable of receiving 8 midi channels simultaneously for 16 note polyphonic playback. my drum pad is a roland spd-11 with 64 patches, A/B sound layering for each pad, approximately 300 on board sounds, and full midi capability. i also have an old octapad and moog that are barely functional but are a lot of fun to throw around. and unlike milli vanilli i write, engineer, and produce all of my music with help from nobody. stop smoking, moby From: cspot@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher Edward Hilker) Newsgroups: alt.rave Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 10 Oct 1993 02:40:17 GMT In <297mag$had@clarknet.clark.net> trance9@clarknet.clark.net (Trance 9) writes : >Moby wanted me to post this on the net, If you have any response e mail >them to me and i will make sure that he gets them. >Michael Meacham (trance9@clark.net) I'm posting. Like it or lump it. [Tour info deleted] >now, regarding this whole live vs dat debate...my shows in the past have >relied on dat for drums, samples, etc. this show will be more live, but >basically, who cares? Hm, a guessing game. Let me see...Moby? Nah... The promoters? Nah... The sound tech? Nah... What about the audience? Think they might care? >would you rather watch a totally 'live' and >totally boring act that doesn't even break a sweat or an act that puts >things on dat and puts on a good show? Whether or not an act sweats is completely irrelevant to me. Putting your act on DAT makes it impossible for you to react musically to the situation. Stage presence is worth nothing. I don't go to raves to watch some guy dance around on stage. If there's a live act, it better be live, and the music better be good. Orbital's stage presence consists of dancing around a bit when the music comes off particularly well, and occaisionally smiling at the people standing next to them watching them work. But their live show kicks ass, precisely because the music *can* come off well on a given night because of their talent. >acts that use dat for part or all >of their show are - >depeche mode, Who cares. >nine inch nails, Who cares. >meat beat manifesto, Really? I'd like to quote Pete Ashdown's post to sfraves about the MBM show he promoted. PA>backwards. So we had to take the house power down (everyone had to save PA>everything on their synthesizers, NO TAPES WERE USED), So it's your word against his. For some reason, I trust Pete more. >808 state, There have been numerous posts in this forum about how shitty 808 State are live. >moby, Duh. >n-joi, etc. I saw N-Joi live a couple years ago. I may as well have listened to the 'Live in Manchester' EP on a big sound system. >acts that don't use dat - grateful dead, >chick corea, yes, james taylor, etc. And Orbital, the Cocteau Twins, the Beastie Boys, Ultramarine, the Aphex Twin... >my point is that i would rather be >entertained by an act that maybe has some things (samples, time code, >etc) on dat than be bored to tears by a band (techno or otherwise) that >does everything 'live'. And my point is that aside from MBM, your entire list of DAT acts have boring live shows. I'd much rather go to a rave with a DJ spinning, who can at least react to the moment in terms of selecting records and deciding when to mix out of one cut, than pay $25 to see some guy up on stage pretend to play synths and throw a temper tantrum. >people who make an issue out of 'is it live?' >techno are dangerously reminiscent of people who can descibe eric >clapton's guitar solos in depth and who dismissed punk, techno, hip-hop, >(and jazz and rock and roll for that matter) as not being valid because >you didn't need a masters degree in music theory to appreciate them. >there, that's my diatribe for today. Musicians who pooh-pooh their audience's concerns by casting aspersions on their taste may find themselves without an audience before long. Music lovers who think that "performances" that are advertised as being live really should be live are interested in getting value for their dollar. Is that hard to understand? >note to joe - my keyboard's not >made of cardboard, it's a fully functioning multi timbral yamaha sy35 >capable of receiving 8 midi channels simultaneously for 16 note >polyphonic playback. my drum pad is a roland spd-11 with 64 patches, A/B >sound layering for each pad, approximately 300 on board sounds, and full >midi capability. But are they plugged in? >i also have an old octapad and moog that are barely >functional but are a lot of fun to throw around. Have fun throwing them around at home then. Don't waste my time with rock and roll bullshit. C. -- (chris.hilker) cspot@cats.ucsc.edu "If spiders were in control, we wouldn't need nuclear weapons." From: eiverso@cms.cc.wayne.edu Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Sat, 09 Oct 93 23:05:42 EDT I prefer to post this response. Just a few thoughts to add that Chris didn't include in his wonderful reply. >the tour is called 'see the light'. this title was thought up by >scotto. my friend paul said 'why not call it raved and confused?' but Raved and Confused? Don't make me puke! :-P Unsubtle Led Zepplin references are cool to you? "Go" figure! ;-) >now, regarding this whole live vs dat debate...my shows in the past have >relied on dat for drums, samples, etc. this show will be more live, but >basically, who cares? would you rather watch a totally 'live' and >totally boring act that doesn't even break a sweat or an act that puts >things on dat and puts on a good show? What kind of a question is that? Oh yeah I'd much rather see a totally boring "act". Now I notice your consistent use of the word "act". When I see a public performance of music, I'd like to think I'm seeing sincere artists, and not merely an "act". >acts that use dat for part or all >of their show are - depeche mode, nine inch nails, meat beat manifesto, >808 state, moby, n-joi, etc. Are these the totally boring ones? ;-) >acts that don't use dat - grateful dead, I'd be careful with this one as there are many alt.ravers who like the GDead. I think they suck, but there we are. :) >chick corea, yes, james taylor, etc. Hey, you forgot to mention Led Zepplin! :) >my point is that i would rather be >entertained by an act that maybe has some things (samples, time code, >etc) on dat than be bored to tears by a band (techno or otherwise) that >does everything 'live'. There you go again giving those same 2 lame choices. I'd rather see a band (or "act" if you prefer) that can interact with their technology. In addition to the ones Chris mentioned, Kraftwerk and Cybersonik are good examples of musicians who put on a great show, are completely live, use no tapes, and can control the pace of their shows through their use of technology. Unless you can really respond to your audience and give them a truly personalised show--i.e. not one that follows the same pace and order every time--then you have yet to know how exciting live performance can be (your reputation, notwithstanding). >people who make an issue out of 'is it live?' >techno are dangerously reminiscent of people who can descibe eric >clapton's guitar solos in depth How about Jimmy Page's solos? _Dazed and Confused_ rocks, d00d! :) So now you're the taste police? >and who dismissed punk, techno, hip-hop, >(and jazz and rock and roll for that matter) as not being valid because >you didn't need a masters degree in music theory to appreciate them. Maybe they are dangerous to you because you sense that popular opinion will turn against you if the techno-buying public thinks you put too much of your "act" on DAT. Your defensive attitude has done nothing to bring me onto your side. Your eletist hinting that it's not cool to like the Grateful Dead, Yes, etc. makes you look like an insecure ass. >midi capability. i also have an old octapad and moog that are barely >functional but are a lot of fun to throw around. and unlike milli >vanilli i write, engineer, and produce all of my music with help from >nobody. Too bad they don't give out awards for that, huh? :) >stop smoking, moby Just had to add one last facsist remark, huh? OK I'll stop smoking because you said so! Actually I don't smoke to begin with. Let's see if it works for me too... stop believing in christ, --Eric ...:::( P E E d h A C k E |) eiverso@cms.cc.wayne.edu ...::::) |\ ex_machina@umich.edu "There lies my problem ... I've not heard enough Ex Machina" --Steve Quigg From: lazlo@unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 9 Oct 1993 23:17:39 -0600 Trance 9 wrote (allegedly for Moby): > now, regarding this whole live vs dat debate...my shows in the past have > relied on dat for drums, samples, etc. this show will be more live, but > basically, who cares? If a musician can't be bothered to play the show live, I can't be bothered to cough up hard-earned dough for the privilege of watching them. Unless you can come up with a way to play the music without relying on tapes for half the sound coming out of the speakers, please don't waste your fans' time by touring. Or at least have enough honesty to bill the show as "Moby shakes his ass onstage over a prerecorded rhythm track for the pleasure of young technoboppers". > acts that don't use dat - grateful dead, chick corea, yes, james taylor... I'd rather suffer the worst touchy-feely excesses of a Dead show than sit through a 45-minute mimed embarrassment by some self-styled studio wizard. > my keyboard's not made of cardboard, it's a fully functioning multi > timbral yamaha sy35 capable of receiving 8 midi channels simultaneously > for 16 note polyphonic playback. I'm sure we'd all be much more impressed by the hardware if you'd bother to plug it in while it's onstage. > stop smoking, moby Mind your own business, Moby. -- Lazlo (lazlo@unm.edu) From: sclover@swell.actrix.gen.nz (Stephen Clover) Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 08:10:53 GMT Subject: Re: Moby's post thought i'd add my thoughts here dat/sequencing can be good, can be bad. i don't think you can generically say either is the case and leave it there i don't mind it when an artist uses dat/sequencers live. it may be necessary. there is a limit to the number of additional musicians an artist can hire to perform. but it becomes pointless and frankly ridiculous if it becomes an alternative to live performance if you're going to have a huge array of equipment and stand there and pretend to play an instrument then, basically, fuck off, i'll (maybe) buy your recordings. if you've bothered to actually plug it in, i may stay for the end of the show if you're going lower yourself to the depravation of pretending to sing, fuck off (ROB and FAB) steve/ (i've stopped smoking and i'm _still_ as open minded as ever) -- "hey poor! you don't have to be poor anymore!" From: sfwhite@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Stephen White) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 09:17:02 GMT interesting. moby posts, and thus far (on my machine) has received three harsh negative replies. i like moby's music. i think it kicks hard. i think he does something that very few of you can do. no, i don't think this gives him the right to be the arbiter of taste or to throw temper tantrums on stage. but i think you might be a little less harsh in judging him. he's just this guy, y'know? if i were he, and i was sensitive to others' opinions (which of course he isn't, since he doesn't do what all you "fans" want him to and turn heavy studio albums into live masterpieces), and read them, it'd be enough to make you want to pack your bags and move to peru or something. which, i suppose would make some of you a lot happier. -=- sfw lone moby fan -- Stephen F. White sfwhite@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca "Too bad we can't dance on USENET." - Brian Behlendorf From: cs90rwr@brunel.ac.uk (Richard W Rackham) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 11:52:56 GMT : Moby wanted me to post this on the net, If you have any response e mail : them to me and i will make sure that he gets them. : Michael Meacham (trance9@clark.net) Show him my views below : : basically, who cares? would you rather watch a totally 'live' and : totally boring act that doesn't even break a sweat or an act that puts : things on dat and puts on a good show? acts that use dat for part or all : of their show are - depeche mode, nine inch nails, meat beat manifesto, : 808 state, moby, n-joi, etc. acts that don't use dat - grateful dead, Moby - I saw you at the Town and Country club in London supporting 808 State. You came on, and I might have well just played my "Next is the E" CD Single and play my keyboard along to the melody. 808 State came on and sounded live - their music didn't sound as if it lifted straight off one of their CDs. Graham Massey was there playing guitar and messing about with his Moog Synth making it sound different to their singles and LPs. Yes 808 were using a DAT (whe most obvious part was when they played One in Ten and UB40 were nowhere to be seen), but they complimented it with playing some instruments live. The sad thing about that night was that I went to see you (not 808 State), and I thought 808 were better. If you are insisting just to play a DAT of one of your tracks that has been released commercially, then I won't bother going. : does everything 'live'. people who make an issue out of 'is it live?' : techno are dangerously reminiscent of people who can descibe eric : clapton's guitar solos in depth and who dismissed punk, techno, hip-hop, Not really - the record companies need someone to "play live" in order to promote the music. They feel that to promote an album or whatever, the band or musician needs to tour. With techno music, the promotion is really done by DJs playing the music at clubs. The only reason I go to gigs is because I want to hear the band play live. I don't really care whether they are actually playing live or not, but I would like it to sound as if they were. Some dance bands can do it - 808 State and The Orb are good examples. So why can't you ? : midi capability. i also have an old octapad and moog that are barely : functional but are a lot of fun to throw around. and unlike milli : vanilli i write, engineer, and produce all of my music with help from Good - that is why I still buy your records. I just won't bother to see you play "live" again. : nobody. stop smoking, moby Richard (cs90rwr@brunel.ac.uk) From: kellyd@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (David Kelly) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1993 15:42:14 GMT sclover@swell.actrix.gen.nz (Stephen Clover) writes: > dat/sequencing can be good, can be bad. i don't > think you can generically say either is the case > and leave it there i'm not sure that people here would have as much of a problem with sequencing.. it's entirely obvious that many (most?) of today's music relies on sequencing and _cannot_ be played live.. but with sequencing the ability is still there of 'tweaking' sounds (using resonance on acidic sound, etc).. i would also go so far (personally) to say that i don't have a problem with MODERATE use of dat for live shows but: a) there should be a LARGE portion of music being performed OR manipulated live. if a dj (who is playing prerecorded music) is doing more 'manipulation' of music than the live act, then it isn't a live act; it's a dance act with prerecorded musical accompaniment. b) the portion of music that IS on dat had better not be virtually the same as 12" or album versions! the people pay to see a show, and the show should include a lot of music that they can't hear at home on a cd. now i'm not talking about all new songs; i just mean there's nothing worse than seeing a 'LIVE' act that just plays their cd in the background sans vocals (or in some cases WITH vocals!). now i don't know how much moby specifically has prerecorded when he plays live (i have never seen him, don't want to) so i am not judging him, but if it's true that very little of what he 'performs' is LIVE then he is destined to be grouped with the likes of robin s and new kids on the block.. that speaks for itself i think. ----- i been hip-MO-tized. kellyd@cybernet.cse.fau.edu From: trance9@clarknet.clark.net (Trance 9) Subject: About Moby Date: 10 Oct 1993 01:05:55 -0400 OK I think people are making too much of this. I have seen Moby play many times and I have even had him play for me at The Future rave last year. Everybody loved him. I think if I went to see U2 and the show was on DAT I would definitely be offended. But look at it this way, when a performer goes to a rave they have no idea what they are getting in to.There are so many things that can go wrong. Also consider that he is only one person. He does play some things live. I'm not defending Moby because he is a friend. It's because I have a lot of respect for him as a musician and I think he has a great live performance. Michael Meacham From: lazlo@unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 10 Oct 1993 12:58:03 -0600 Stephen White wrote: > lone moby fan Please don't put up this ridiculous "I-Alone-Understand-The-Travails-Of- The-Artist" pose. Most of us like his music. We just don't like the fact that his "live" performances could be easily duplicated by a DJ and a poster of his face pinned up on the back wall of the club. If you don't mind paying real money to see a mostly-pretaped show, fine; other people do. Just because you like an artist doesn't mean you have to agree with every stupid decision they make. -- Lazlo (lazlo@unm.edu) From: st1pk@rosie.uh.edu (Disco!) Subject: Re: About Moby Date: 10 Oct 1993 14:22 CDT In article <29857j$o01@clarknet.clark.net>, trance9@clarknet.clark.net (Trance 9) writes... >OK I think people are making too much of this. >I have seen Moby play many times and I have even had him play for me at >The Future rave last year. Everybody loved him. I think if I went to see >U2 and the show was on DAT I would definitely be offended. But look at it >this way, when a performer goes to a rave they have no idea what they are >getting in to.There are so many things that can go wrong. Also consider >that he is only one person. He does play some things live. I'm not >defending Moby because he is a friend. It's because I have a lot of >respect for him as a musician and I think he has a great live performance. >Michael Meacham > I saw Moby over the summer and he didn't have his keyboard plugged in. In fact...I remember seeing this other guy behind the curtains playing the keyboards. Who is this guy? Is he the *real* moby? Until now..i refuse to believe that short guy is Moby and that he is actually pretending to be moby and pretending to play keyboards. -- daniel k. taylor | "...I feel much better now." st1pk@jetson.uh.edu | HAL 9000, from 2001:A Space Odyssey From: eiverso@cms.cc.wayne.edu Subject: Re: About Moby Date: Sun, 10 Oct 93 16:43:09 EDT st1pk@rosie.uh.edu (Disco!) writes: > I saw Moby over the summer and he didn't have his keyboard plugged > in. In fact...I remember seeing this other guy behind the curtains > playing the keyboards. Who is this guy? Is he the *real* moby? hehe "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtian!" :) > daniel k. taylor | "...I feel much better now." > st1pk@jetson.uh.edu | HAL 9000, from 2001:A Space Odyssey --Eric ...:::( P E E d h A C k E |) eiverso@cms.cc.wayne.edu ...::::) |\ ex_machina@umich.edu "Life in the air age...it's grim enough to make a robot cry" -- Bill Nelson From: ccjy@sun.cse.bris.ac.uk (J. Young) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 09:42:21 GMT In article , Samu Mielonen wrote: >Is raves and rave music something so serious that one must tell others to >'fuck off'? I think there lies a challenge in giving constructive >criticism and being polite at the same time, but it seems many are not willing >to take up on that challenge. So much for that friendly rave neigborhood. >(and please, if your sole intention is to tell me to 'fuck off' make >it e-mail). AT last. A man with a conscience and a brain. Nice one. May i just point out the problem we are having in England with the so called Rave scene. When it hit the major times in 1991/2 it was a great feeling of everyone together . All dancing talking hugging, whatever. Good times. But now, as we progress to the latter part of 1993 we see something immerging on the scene. A major split up. What used to be labelled "Rave" has now gone into various sub sections. Taking it avid followers with it to its new defined quaters. You have your darkside fans. You have your Breakbeat fans. You have your techno fans. You have your progressive fans. Etc...etc... All of which are having a good time dancing to the sounds of which they like the most. Now there is nothing wrong with this. Except now you find that the people loving the sounds of say 120/130bpm dance music, find the darkside breakbeat music not in their scene. Thats fine. But we get the araogance with it now. The "bad vibes" if you wanna call it that. Gone are the days of Nations under one flag. So my point is this. If you don't like one thing. It doesn't make it wrong just because you don't like it. Its just not on your agenda. "Its not a matter of opinion when it comes down to this...Its just a difference of opinion that much i can take!!" - Faith No More Read it and understand it. Music is a sound. Nothing more. If you don't like the sound...switch off, leave, walk away. Don't kill it cos you don't like it. Now lets stop with the "Hey we're throwing axes at Moby on alt.rave" type of conversations. Its not even a good point of argument. Fine, display your views. But do them in a manner that people can respect your critisisms and not make yourself look like an avid supporter of the "We are the meat eating satanic worshipping KKK club". Don't waste my time. Be real and positive, not so hardcore you can't see your nose and negative. TIME OUT. My friends U4ia......almost is never enough From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 12 Oct 1993 10:30:08 GMT In article , J. Young wrote: >So my point is this. If you don't like one thing. It doesn't make it >wrong just because you don't like it. Its just not on your agenda. > >"Its not a matter of opinion when it comes down to this...Its just a >difference of opinion that much i can take!!" - Faith No More That has nothing to do with why everyone responded so harshly to Moby. It has everything to do with the fact we feel cheated when told of a "performance" that is really mime. He could be playing cello, if I heard it was on DAT while he was up there banging away on his woodwin instrument, I'd still be pissed. And not only was it blatant, he castigated those who had a problem with it! >Now lets stop with the "Hey we're throwing axes at Moby on alt.rave" type >of conversations. Its not even a good point of argument. Fine, display >your views. But do them in a manner that people can respect your >critisisms and not make yourself look like an avid supporter of the >"We are the meat eating satanic worshipping KKK club". Don't waste my time. >Be real and positive, not so hardcore you can't see your nose and negative. At what point does the "peace love harmony" aspect of raves mean that we can't say something bad about something any more? Does loving the world mean losing your critical viewpoint? I don't think it does. I'm sure Moby has some great talent - there were a few mixes of Go! that I loved when they came out. But treating his fans like ignoramuses is NOT something I admire. Well, at least he gave me a new .sig to play around with. Brian ---------------------------------------------------------------------- basically, who cares? would you rather watch a totally 'live' and totally boring act that doesn't even break a sweat or an act that puts things on dat and puts on a good show? - Richard Hall, on USENET From: ccjy@sun.cse.bris.ac.uk (J. Young) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 13:15:34 GMT In article <29e0vg$4se@agate.berkeley.edu>, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >In article , >J. Young wrote: >>So my point is this. If you don't like one thing. It doesn't make it >>wrong just because you don't like it. Its just not on your agenda. >> >>"Its not a matter of opinion when it comes down to this...Its just a >>difference of opinion that much i can take!!" - Faith No More > >That has nothing to do with why everyone responded so harshly to Moby. >It has everything to do with the fact we feel cheated when told of a >"performance" that is really mime. He could be playing cello, if I >heard it was on DAT while he was up there banging away on his woodwin >instrument, I'd still be pissed. And not only was it blatant, he >castigated those who had a problem with it! If you read his post properly you would have read the word "ACT" a number of times. Now can we stop this please. I couldn't give a monkeys if the beatles were up there pretending to play "The Unfinished Symphony" under the name of Led Zepplin!!! If you go to a concert of Moby, you go to hear MOBY music. And thats what you get...live or not. Makes no difference to me. But to you obviously it does. Like i said before..if you don't like it..walk away. > >>Now lets stop with the "Hey we're throwing axes at Moby on alt.rave" type >>of conversations. Its not even a good point of argument. Fine, display >>your views. But do them in a manner that people can respect your >>critisisms and not make yourself look like an avid supporter of the >>"We are the meat eating satanic worshipping KKK club". Don't waste my time. >>Be real and positive, not so hardcore you can't see your nose and negative. > >At what point does the "peace love harmony" aspect of raves mean >that we can't say something bad about something any more? Does >loving the world mean losing your critical viewpoint? At what point were you given a license to kill?? Who died and made you boss??? Fine. viewpoints are great. But mindless abuse is a waste of time. > I don't >think it does. I'm sure Moby has some great talent - there were >a few mixes of Go! that I loved when they came out. But treating >his fans like ignoramuses is NOT something I admire. I don't beleive he is doing that. Neither do i beleive that is his intention. Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me via email of how you think he has mistreated his fans?? By not playing live?? By being religious?? By not smoking?? Makes no difference. Its all just a different view point. > >Well, at least he gave me a new .sig to play around with. > > Brian > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >basically, who cares? would you rather watch a totally 'live' and >totally boring act that doesn't even break a sweat or an act that puts >things on dat and puts on a good show? - Richard Hall, on USENET And i still understand this text. My friend U4ia...almost is never enough From: lxfogel@srv.PacBell.COM (Lee Fogel) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 16:07:48 GMT In article ccjy@sun.cse.bris.ac.uk (J. Young) writes: > >But now, as we progress to the latter part of 1993 we see something >immerging on the scene. A major split up. >What used to be labelled "Rave" has now gone into various sub sections. >Taking it avid followers with it to its new defined quaters. >Gone are the days of Nations under one flag. Another development that might concern you is the exploitation of ravers and other music lovers by greedy, selfserving, egotists who have climbed to the top of the status ladder and project down to the rest of us the hero-worship vibe that raving was supposed to have transcended. Moby's act, and his defense of his act, has the same self-promoting arrogance as Billy Idol's posts to alt.cyberpunk. >Now lets stop with the "Hey we're throwing axes at Moby on alt.rave" type >of conversations. Some people in the rave scene are disturbed by the attempts of status- wielding individuals to turn raving into just another fan-superstar cultural phenonema. The impression many of us are getting is that unlike Orbital and Richard James, Moby is not coming to share his creative energy with us, but only to perpetuate his ego at us. By promoting the follow-the-leader mentality, he helps destroy much of what raving was once about. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lee Fogel/\/\/\/\/\eVerything/\Is/\possiBlE/\/\/\/\/\lxfogel@srv.pacbell.com ____________________________________________________________________________ From: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 12 Oct 1993 10:35:48 -0600 Moby writes: >of their show are - depeche mode, nine inch nails, meat beat manifesto, >808 state, moby, n-joi, etc. Putting Meat Beat Manifesto into this list is a travesty. Meat Beat Manifesto takes pride in the FACT that they perform their entire show *LIVE*. I know what is in their equipment list, I helped set it up. Stating that you NEED a DAT backup to do an energetic show is complete bullshit. I've seen everyone on that list save N-Joi, and I must say it was readily apparent that the rest WERE MIMING. Bands that don't use DAT that are quite boring: Grateful Dead, Chick Corea, James Taylor, The Leonard Nemoy Trio, etc. Bands that don't use DAT that ripped me a new asshole: Meat Beat Manifesto, Orbital, Ultramarine, Ministry, Helmet, Revolting Cocks, Pop Will Eat Itself, Art of Noise, Shriekback, Lords of the New Church, The Damned, etc... Quit smoking and have faith in your own sequences. -- Estos tatuajes representan a MICKEY MOUSE O SUPERMAN O BART SIMPSON DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer. Keep it that way. Pete Ashdown pashdown@slack.sim.es.com Salt Lake City, Utah From: lazlo@unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 12 Oct 1993 10:56:15 -0600 J. Young wrote: > If you go to a concert of Moby, you go to hear MOBY music. And thats > what you get...live or not. Makes no difference to me. But to you > obviously it does. Like i said before..if you don't like it..walk away. By the same token, if you don't like to hear other peoples' opinions, positive *or* negative, you're always free to unsubscribe from this group and create alt.rave.insipid with a moderator to make sure every post that goes through is *happy* and *fluffy* and *guaranteed* not to disturb your happy li'l peece-luv-doap let's-be-NIIIICE (HugZ! XOXOXOXO!) world. > Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me via email of how you think he has > mistreated his fans?? By not playing live?? By being religious?? By not > smoking?? Makes no difference. Its all just a different view point. If it makes no difference, why are you so eager to disparage us for expressing *our* viewpoints? (Real answer: because you don't agree with us, and you don't want to have to listen to any viewpoints you don't agree with, and therefore we should all go away to make your life easier. Wrong answer. We are not accessories for a Hello Kitty playset -- it's not our responsibility to keep you feeling safe and secure.) >> basically, who cares? would you rather watch a totally 'live' and >> totally boring act that doesn't even break a sweat or an act that puts >> things on dat and puts on a good show? - Richard Hall, on USENET > > And i still understand this text. I do too. I understand it as meaning that Moby thinks people ought to be happy to pay admission just to be in the same room as him, whether or not he can actually be bothered to play music. And I disagree. Vehemently. -- Lazlo (lazlo@unm.edu) From: raver909@telerama.pgh.pa.us (Joe LeSesne) Subject: MOBY Live? with AFX and Orbital -READ THIS MOBY Date: 12 Oct 1993 13:43:02 -0400 Ok, I feel somewhat responsible for starting this thread but my principal holds true: If it is all on DAT there is NO LIVE performance. So it shouldn't be advertised as such. Moby, I'd be happy if say only 15% of your "live" show was live. Definition of live: Music being played from instruments on stage either by said musician or sequencer. (e.g. Not using a keyboard as merely a stage prop.) Even if the music is sequenced you can still do live filtering and playing over top of it. But you know that Moby. See I happened to be at two shows of yours Moby and was treated to the same "performance" (e.g. songs in the same order off the DAT. Both nights. Now the least you could have done was make a couple different DATs. As for you putting your "performance" on DAT I have no problem with that either so long as it isn't being called a live performance. Orbital, Aphex, System 7, Eat Static, F.U.S.E/Cybersonik, and many others including me (1.8.7) do a good portion of their show live. In the case of me and Cybersonik, I can say that it's all live. (Ritchie Hawtin helped me get started). Now would you consider the abovementioned groups boring acts who don't break a sweat? It takes alot of risk to do some stuff live. And what is this anyway about breaking a sweat? I mean how rock can you get Moby? I thought busting up equipment on stage went out with Pete Townsend and The Who. As I said I have no problem with your using a DAT but why not just leave all the stage antics and equipment that never gets plugged in at home. Put the new stuff on DAT and mix it in during a DJ set by Moby. Dimity does this, so do other DJ's such as Wink and I think Repete. Doesn't that make better sense? Or if you are set on doing a "live" set then at least put some effort into playing some of the parts live. Every time I saw you you had a keyboard that had no line going into the line out. Even Liam from Prodigy adds some extra basslines. Why can't you? Its not that hard Moby, and you must realize that you do have a fairly well educated audience that does "know the difference" contrary to what you said before. We are not mindless zombies. And to my comment that America deserves better. What I meant was the "Techno Face of America" should at least make some attempt while on tour with such wizards as Aphex and Orbital who *DO* some of their show live, to do the same. Its not THAT hard Moby. I read an interview with you that said you use to. Why don't you now? You certainly have more money to insure that something "won't go wrong". I have done live PA's all throughout Ohio, Pennsylvania and Toronto. I have buggy old EPS sampler. It has yet to crash on me during a performance. It's not that hard Moby. It's just a lot easier to put one over on the public and not be worried about messing up because it's all on DAT. And getting paid the same amount. I say honest pay for honest work AND truth in advertising. This was not meant as a flame Moby just a suggestion. Do with it what you will but be advised "we know our shit." Joe _1.8.7____________/\_/\__/\___/\______/\____________Hotline_to_the_Dark_Realm ((WOW)) -- -<><><><><><><><><)-]187-Phat_Beats_For_Phat_Cities-(><><><><><><><><><><><>- | Sub.bass.Frequency.Percolator || ---------------------------------- From: lazlo@unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 12 Oct 1993 12:39:36 -0600 Pete Ashdown wrote: > Bands that don't use DAT that ripped me a new asshole: Meat Beat > Manifesto, Orbital, Ultramarine, Ministry, Helmet, Revolting Cocks, Pop > Will Eat Itself, Art of Noise, Shriekback, Lords of the New Church, The > Damned, etc... Indeed -- if Orbital and even *Art of Noise* can play their stuff live, there is no excuse on earth for any other band *not* to. -- Lazlo (lazlo@unm.edu) From: amk9532@ritvax.isc.rit.edu Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 22:14:29 GMT why do you associate meat eating with satanic worshipping and the KKK? that's just wrong. From: mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 22:29:07 GMT In article <297smh$95d@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, cspot@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher Edward Hilker) writes: |> If there's a live act, it better be live, and |> the music better be good. Orbital's stage presence consists of dancing |> around a bit when the music comes off particularly well, and occaisionally |> smiling at the people standing next to them watching them work. But their |> live show kicks ass, precisely because the music *can* come off well on |> a given night because of their talent. When I saw Orbital a few months ago (at the same show you were at, Chris), their live show consisted of them pressing the "play" button on their sequencer and then tweaking the eq and reverb settings for 45 minutes while their MIDI gear churned along. They didn't actually *play* anything. Exactly what "talent" were you referring to? And is live eq-ing and reverb-ing really that much different or better than what Moby does? Data point #1: I really hate live techno. Data point #2: Watch out for a live UVC show in the near future. From: sfwhite@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca (Stephen White) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 01:48:16 GMT In article <299lvr$4kf@triton.unm.edu>, Lazlo Nibble wrote: > Stephen White wrote: >> lone moby fan thanks for throughly divorcing this line of any context, btw. > Please don't put up this ridiculous "I-Alone-Understand-The-Travails-Of- > The-Artist" pose. if you read the whole article, you noticed this was not what i meant. i was simply bemoaning the fact that everyone who followed up to moby's post was being negative. > Most of us like his music. We just don't like the fact > that his "live" performances could be easily duplicated by a DJ and a > poster of his face pinned up on the back wall of the club. If you don't > mind paying real money to see a mostly-pretaped show, fine; other people do. EVERY LIVE TECHNO SHOW I HAVE EVER SEEN HAS SOME TAPED/SEQUENCED ELEMENTS. techno is a music which is born from drum machines and conjured up from sequencers. if a live techno show does not have at least some sequenced elements, in my opinion, it is no longer techno, and has now moved into the realm of acid jazz or the like. how much tape/sequence you put up with, is a personal opinion. in my opinion, the amount of tape or sequencing is irrelevant, as long as they put on *show*. something that dazzles and entertains. from my impressions, a lot of people have not gotten a "show" out of moby. that's fine. but i don't see the need to lambaste him repeatedly from, to my knowledge, his only appearance on USENET. at least it would've been polite to say "i enjoy your music, *but* i think your live show needs work". > Just because you like an artist doesn't mean you have to agree with every > stupid decision they make. certainly. and just because you make music doesn't mean you have to listen to every stupid opinion posted on USENET. -=- sfw including mine, of course -- Stephen F. White sfwhite@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca "Too bad we can't dance on USENET." - Brian Behlendorf From: raver909@telerama.pgh.pa.us (Joe LeSesne) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 12 Oct 1993 23:03:23 -0400 Brian Behlendorf (bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu) wrote: : In article , : J. Young wrote: : >So my point is this. If you don't like one thing. It doesn't make it : >wrong just because you don't like it. Its just not on your agenda. : > : >"Its not a matter of opinion when it comes down to this...Its just a : >difference of opinion that much i can take!!" - Faith No More : That has nothing to do with why everyone responded so harshly to Moby. : It has everything to do with the fact we feel cheated when told of a : "performance" that is really mime. He could be playing cello, if I : heard it was on DAT while he was up there banging away on his woodwin : instrument, I'd still be pissed. And not only was it blatant, he : castigated those who had a problem with it! Exactly! Brian hit it dead on. This is all essentially true, it seems to me both Moby and Michael Meacham underestimated the people on alt.rave. We are not just some mindless zobies following some TechnoGOD lock step. As I say: honest pay for honest work and truth in advertising. And being smug and condescending never helped anyone's arguement. : >critisisms and not make yourself look like an avid supporter of the : >"We are the meat eating satanic worshipping KKK club". Don't waste my time. : >Be real and positive, not so hardcore you can't see your nose and negative. : At what point does the "peace love harmony" aspect of raves mean : that we can't say something bad about something any more? Does : loving the world mean losing your critical viewpoint? I don't : think it does. I'm sure Moby has some great talent - there were : a few mixes of Go! that I loved when they came out. But treating : his fans like ignoramuses is NOT something I admire. Exactly, the "Face of Techno in America" should at least show more tact. I said it before and I'll say it again: "America deserves better" : Well, at least he gave me a new .sig to play around with. Hehehe Brian, use it well! : Brian : ---------------------------------------------------------------------- : basically, who cares? would you rather watch a totally 'live' and : totally boring act that doesn't even break a sweat or an act that puts : things on dat and puts on a good show? - Richard Hall, on USENET Hehehe and there it is. Staight out the mouth of the Pete Townsend of rave. -- -<><><><><><><><><)-]187-Phat_Beats_For_Phat_Cities-(><><><><><><><><><><><>- | Sub.bass.Frequency.Percolator || ---------------------------------- From: ccjy@sun.cse.bris.ac.uk (J. Young) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:16:37 GMT >why do you associate meat eating with satanic worshipping and the KKK? >that's just wrong. It was sarcasm. I appologise. I should have made it clearer that i was taking the piss. My friend U4ia...almost is never enough From: ccjy@sun.cse.bris.ac.uk (J. Young) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:23:47 GMT Lee Fogel wrote: >In article ccjy@sun.cse.bris.ac.uk (J. Young) writes: > >>Now lets stop with the "Hey we're throwing axes at Moby on alt.rave" type >>of conversations. > >Some people in the rave scene are disturbed by the attempts of status- >wielding individuals to turn raving into just another fan-superstar >cultural phenonema. The impression many of us are getting is that >unlike Orbital and Richard James, Moby is not coming to share his >creative energy with us, but only to perpetuate his ego at us. By >promoting the follow-the-leader mentality, he helps destroy much of >what raving was once about. Thats too true. I worship noone. And i also saw no posts asking anyone to worship anyone!! Where are you americans getting this from??? Seems the scenes in England and the scenes in America are worlds apart. And if this is what its like in america all i can say is , I am glad I am in England. Not that England is too good at the minute anyway. I ssay it again. I don't beleive Moby is trying to create a "Follow the leader" type of music scene. One last thing. HEY MOBY!! GET YOUR BUTT ON HERE AND ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS YOURSELF MAN!! I have to many axe wounds on me now to stand much more of this "Kill Kill Kill" attitude. My friends U4ia....almost is never enough From: m.g.overton@aston.ac.uk (Matthew G Overton) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 10:38:22 GMT In article , mw@sybase.com (Michael Wertheim) wrote: > > In article <297smh$95d@darkstar.UCSC.EDU>, cspot@cats.ucsc.edu (Christopher Edward Hilker) writes: > |> If there's a live act, it better be live, and > |> the music better be good. Orbital's stage presence consists of dancing > |> around a bit when the music comes off particularly well, and occaisionally > |> smiling at the people standing next to them watching them work. But their > |> live show kicks ass, precisely because the music *can* come off well on > |> a given night because of their talent. > > When I saw Orbital a few months ago (at the same show you were at, Chris), > their live show consisted of them pressing the "play" button on their sequencer > and then tweaking the eq and reverb settings for 45 minutes while their MIDI gear > churned along. They didn't actually *play* anything. Exactly what "talent" were > you referring to? And is live eq-ing and reverb-ing really that much different > or better than what Moby does? It's a bit more complex than pressing the play button. I stood on a gantry right next to the stage when they played in Birmingham so I've seen close hand how they work. They run two MMT8s in sync--one for rhythm, the other for everything else. They were punching patterns in and out, holding them, repeating them etc. They were also messing around with the instruments--the TR909, R8, the TB303s and the Jupiter 6. As well as this, they were live muting and eq-ing on two desks. They had a DAT, of course, to record what they were doing... And after a power cut had halted the set, they came back on, reset and reloaded the equipment and continued. This happened twice. It was an excellent show. In comparison, like a previous poster, Moby, supporting 808 State, wasn't. The point is Orbital make an effort; Moby appears not to... Matt From: raver909@telerama.pgh.pa.us (Joe LeSesne) Subject: Re: About Moby Date: 12 Oct 1993 14:56:03 -0400 Trance 9 (trance9@clarknet.clark.net) wrote: : OK I think people are making too much of this. I don't think so Michael. : I have seen Moby play many times and I have even had him play for me at : The Future rave last year. Everybody loved him. I was there Michael. Alot of people loved him sure, but not everyone. Many people just wandered up to the little hut that had a DJ spinning when he came on. To this day most people still say the best live act you had at Future was Disintegrator. Moby was ok. A Priori blew chunks, Euphoria was alright. Apotheosis didn't show.and I forget the others. : I think if I went to see : U2 and the show was on DAT I would definitely be offended. But look at it : this way, when a performer goes to a rave they have no idea what they are : getting in to.There are so many things that can go wrong. Yep, and that is why it is EASIER to put it all on DAT. Some people take the easy way out than take the chances. If anyone doesn't have a reason to sweat it is Moby with his performance sitting nice and neat on DAT. This gives him time to do such "showmanship" type things as beat an Octapad senseless, beat a keyboard senseless and knock it over. Kick things around on stage, and the best one, miming the intro into Go. : Also consider : that he is only one person. He does play some things live. I'm not : defending Moby because he is a friend. It's because I have a lot of : respect for him as a musician and I think he has a great live performance. : Michael Meacham Consider this Michael, in all due respect to you I'm sure you are a good promoter, bringing us such raves as Future and Back to the Future. However I question your musical knowlege as it seems our definition of play and live are two different things. I think you mean you've seen him hit play on the DAT right. I also think by performance you mean the stage antics of busting things up right? Because even at your Future rave I noticed nothing comming out of the keyboard on stage. No lines or anything. At least NRG at your Back to the Future was kind enough to let us know it was all DAT. They even joked about it. Now that is a good attitude. It's high time people demystified techno and brought it to a level that everyone can understand. I mean this not as a slam against Moby or you Michael but as a helpful suggestion. "we know our shit." BTW: If you ever need a *REAL* live BreakCore/Darkness/Hard acid PA send mail to raver909@telerama.pgh.pa.us and I'll send a demo your way. _1.8.7_____/\__/\____/\__________/\/\/\/\_/\_/\_____Hotline_to_the_Dark_Realm__ _ (((WOW))) -- -<><><><><><><><><)-]187-Phat_Beats_For_Phat_Cities-(><><><><><><><><><><><>- | Sub.bass.Frequency.Percolator || ---------------------------------- From: laura@usl.com Subject: Re: About Moby Date: 12 Oct 1993 15:40:35 -0400 About all the Moby and DAT bs: (1) If a musician chooses to put all, most, or some of a performance on DAT then that is their own affair. HOWEVER, advertising as a "live" performance someone who is merely miming to a DAT or lip-synching doesn't sound very live to me. I think saying "public appearance by so-and-so" is more accurate. But then, truth in rave advertising isn't exactly a strong point of rave culture. (2) Statements about "boring" and "not boring" are purely a matter of taste. I personally find the "band" lineup for "See the Light"/"Dazed and Confused" rather boring, except for Vapour Space. My point is that to claim you are more or less boring because you jump around on stage and sweat is a pretty weak argument. Madonna jumps around and stage and sweats, and I find her boring too. The first chair violin of the London Symphony Orchestra sits in his chair (and might sweat a bit) and I find him riveting. (3) If you get turned on by Moby's music you'll go and not really care whether he's just playing a DAT of his latest creations or is composing on the fly or whatever. The bottom line is that for some people, many of them readers of alt.rave, the absolute most important thing is the music. We'd rather see artists be as inventive and creative as they can be, and not worry about how they look on stage. Enjoy it. That is why it exists. Laura From: valis@mindvox.phantom.com (Daniel Selzer) Subject: my opinions Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 01:32:19 GMT First of all, someone said that Meat Beat Manifesto are all live. When I think live, I thought no sequencing and for them to come on stage and say ALL LIVE while no one was playing those killer bass lines was silly. If their definiton of live includes a lot of sequencing than fine. However the reason MBM should not be included with Moby is this. Moby runs around while his music plays, MBM have a live drummer for much of the parts, and Johnny Dangers sang, and used a drum pas to play certain lines , trigger key samples(BABYLON!) and Stevens played keyboard lines and guitar(unless they were all miming....) I like Moby's music. When a techno band plays at a rave its their music and they can react to the audience. However when I saw the MBM, 808 show I thought I was just going to sit there and watch the bands, you see, I hadn't really danced before. By the time 808 was over, I had no way to tell if they were live because I was paying more attention to myself and the people around me and the lights and the back of my eyelids as I danced to loud 808 state music. I assumed they were playing. Weather or not they were playing, I still would have had fun, but thats not the point. I could've stayed at home and listened to their albums, or I couldc've had some friends over for the dancing aspect. The fact that it said 808 meant I was going to hear 808 state. However, miming a live act is just cheese. For along time there were no faces associted with the music. Artists put out songs under many many differentnames withought a care for success under one. Moby did this. Now everything is MOBY and, correct me if I'm wrong, but his picture is on the album, the signals. I would rather go to a rave advertised as a a nameless DJ playing his music, then as Moby runnign around stage with lights on him as a DAT machine plays his music, you see, the first show would be cheaper and there would be less distractions. The additude at whether Moby was playing or a DAT I would enjoy it is silly, maybe this is just a trend in techno due to itsdifficulties reproduce but the best live bands do things like improvise and play things that not only lead, but react to the audience. Technologly gives people such the chance to put on KILLER live shows. I've been hearing alot about Dub Tribe. What about D'Cuckoo, they put a blown up ball in the audience, like many artists, only this one had MIDI triggers on it. valis@phantom.com occon-TIMARA mambofistmiasmA ;-0 "I don't see why I have to buy a dog for that damn baby." From: pashdown@slack.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) Subject: Re: MOBY Live with AFX and Orbital Date: 13 Oct 1993 10:40:23 -0600 mei172@cch.coventry.ac.uk (guru) writes: >guru sez: > eh? AFX playing live? Is that AFX as in "Aphex Twin"? > When I saw him live he seemed to be watching TV at the front of > the stage whilst his mate Paul pranced around like he had an > electrode up his arse. Richard occasionally twiddled something, > but it might have been the tuning knob on the TV....not miming, > but not really playing live either.... > Orbital sort of played live, at least the computer was running the > sequencer files live onstage whilst Paul and Phil added extra key- > board segments and chopped and changed as they went along, which > was fantastic to see... Mike Wertheim also questioned the difference between "PLAY" on a sequencer and "PLAY" on a tape. I believe that one takes a lot more work to do from spot to spot. Granted, most of Orbital's set comes from sequences they have laid down in advance, but a lot of Orbital's music is unplayable by human hands. I noticed them pulling out segments and inserting others when they played which, IMHO, is much more impressive than simply pressing "PLAY" on the DAT and pretending to be doing *something*. It could be akin to DJing with synthesizers rather than turntables. -- Estos tatuajes representan a MICKEY MOUSE O SUPERMAN O BART SIMPSON DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer. Keep it that way. Pete Ashdown pashdown@slack.sim.es.com Salt Lake City, Utah From: f1sami@uta.fi (Samu Mielonen) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 13 Oct 1993 15:51:02 +0200 "Another development that might concern you is the exploitation of "ravers and other music lovers by greedy, selfserving, egotists who "have climbed to the top of the status ladder and project down to the "rest of us the hero-worship vibe that raving was supposed to have "transcended. Moby's act, and his defense of his act, has the same "self-promoting arrogance as Billy Idol's posts to alt.cyberpunk. "Some people in the rave scene are disturbed by the attempts of status- "wielding individuals to turn raving into just another fan-superstar "cultural phenonema. The impression many of us are getting is that "unlike Orbital and Richard James, Moby is not coming to share his "creative energy with us, but only to perpetuate his ego at us. By "promoting the follow-the-leader mentality, he helps destroy much of "what raving was once about. Now this is the kind of criticism that me and J. Young were looking for. You don't have to bow down before you heroes, but they are human too - so why don't we (and this is mainly directed to Lazlo) treat them as human beings. And don't tell me that Moby did it in the first place, it's hardly an excuse. have patience - please, samu PS What I meant by being human was making errors and maybe being offended by somebody telling him/her to fuck off. We're not perfect, not any of us and that includes Lazlo too :) the same -- "you are now" From: andy@lard.ftp.com (Andy Nourse) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 12:07:07 In article <16C62144D4.EIVERSO@cms.cc.wayne.edu> eiverso@cms.cc.wayne.edu writes: > Post relayed from Moby: > >acts that don't use dat - grateful dead, > > I'd be careful with this one as there are many alt.ravers who like > the GDead. More of us than you can possibly imagine :^) It's interesting that he mentioned the Grateful Dead, as they are perhaps the ultimate counterexample to his assertion. What Mickey Hart and Bob Braylove do between the end of the drum duet and the start of the "space" segment sure sounds like techno to me. > I think they suck, but there we are. :) It's just as well that some people think so, it's hard enough to get tickets as it is. :^) :^) :^) We Are Everywhere &andy From: raver909@telerama.pgh.pa.us (Joe LeSesne) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 13 Oct 93 15:55:02 GMT Michael Wertheim (mw@sybase.com) wrote: : their live show consisted of them pressing the "play" button on their sequencer : and then tweaking the eq and reverb settings for 45 minutes while their MIDI gear : churned along. They didn't actually *play* anything. Exactly what "talent" were : you referring to? And is live eq-ing and reverb-ing really that much different : or better than what Moby does? Well it is live to tweak and eq with a a sequencer because if you want to you can almost generate an on-the-fly remix of the song being played. The control is still in the hands of the musician. Not on pre-recorded onto a tape. Yes there is a difference. And contrary to what you and some others have mentioned you don't necessarily have to stop when it's live. I've built my own little box which I call the MIDI-crossfader which lets me mix my songs in the live show like a DJ mixing records. I flip a switch and adjust the tempos. Each song gets mixed into the next without stopping so the crowd never stops dancing. And that's what it is all about right? If I want to add more "stage action" to my show (like in Toronto) I bring my MC and two female dancers Stephanie and Jamie.But the focus of the performance is to get people hyped enough to dance.period. So what that I am behind a rack of equipment and it's hard to see me. It's not about me. It's about the dance. That's the difference between a 1.8.7 PA (Performing Appearance) and a Moby PA (Public Appearance) And yes, I do break a sweat. :) : Data point #1: I really hate live techno. : Data point #2: Watch out for a live UVC show in the near future. Data point #3: For a real good Darkness/Breakcore/Hard Acid live performance Check out 1.8.7 at Algorythm 2 in Pittsburgh on Oct. 30 with Lenny Dee of Industrial Strength records. Data point #4: Look for 1.8.7 dates in the Chicago/Detroit/Milwaukee area, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Toronto and of course Pittsburgh. Joe __1_8_7________________/\_____/\___________/\_/\_/\_Hotline_to_the_Dark_Realm_ -- -<><><><><><><><><)-]187-Phat_Beats_For_Phat_Cities-(><><><><><><><><><><><>- | Sub.bass.Frequency.Percolator || ---------------------------------- From: raver909@telerama.pgh.pa.us (Joe LeSesne) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 13 Oct 93 16:05:45 GMT Stephen White (sfwhite@sciborg.uwaterloo.ca) wrote: : EVERY LIVE TECHNO SHOW I HAVE EVER SEEN HAS SOME TAPED/SEQUENCED : ELEMENTS. techno is a music which is born from drum machines and : conjured up from sequencers. if a live techno show does not have at : least some sequenced elements, in my opinion, it is no longer : techno, and has now moved into the realm of acid jazz or the like. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RUNNING SEQUVENCES AND TWEAKING/REMIXING AND PLAYING A TAPE AND MIMING AND DANCING. EG. ONE IS LIVE THE OTHER IS NOT SO ORBITAL, EAT STATIC, LFO, APHEX, CYBERSONIK/FUSE and the like are Acid Jazz? BTW: I like some Acid Jazz but I hardly think any of the above LIVE acts are acid jazz because they don't use a DAT. : how much tape/sequence you put up with, is a personal opinion. in : my opinion, the amount of tape or sequencing is irrelevant, as long : as they put on *show*. something that dazzles and entertains. : from my impressions, a lot of people have not gotten a "show" out : of moby. that's fine. but i don't see the need to lambaste him : repeatedly from, to my knowledge, his only appearance on USENET. at : least it would've been polite to say "i enjoy your music, *but* i : think your live show needs work". We did say that. I personal enjoyed some mixes of Go but as an artist to another artist I had tell him what I feel could improve his "live" show. : > Just because you like an artist doesn't mean you have to agree with every : > stupid decision they make. : certainly. and just because you make music doesn't mean you have to : listen to every stupid opinion posted on USENET. Yep and I invite all to come to hear 1.8.7 at a rave or underground party and critique me on USENET. Some have already done it. And I have got mostly good reviews. Each performance is that, a performance. Different each night but just as energetic. : -=- sfw -Joe LeSesne- "Whatever happened to Stephen Quiqq?" -- -<><><><><><><><><)-]187-Phat_Beats_For_Phat_Cities-(><><><><><><><><><><><>- | Sub.bass.Frequency.Percolator || ---------------------------------- From: shum@merle.acns.nwu.edu (Michael Shum) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 13 Oct 1993 17:27:51 GMT well let me throw in my 2 cents here, some of the best shows i've been to have been almost entirely or entirely on dat. when i first saw moby in january of '92 as support for the shamen he had so much energy and no one knew who the hell he was at the time he put on a great show... granted i dont like him anymore but he seemed like a swell guy at the time, telling all of us "i came all the way from new york to play you this song." he also spun and played a good set. well then this past summer i saw him again and of course everything has gone to his bald head and he was stagediving and shit. but i'm getting off the subject. my point is that who cares if its on dat as long as the vibe is phat?? yours,m From: lazlo@unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 13 Oct 1993 12:24:24 -0600 Samu Mielonen wrote: > You don't have to bow down before you heroes, but they are human too - > so why don't we (and this is mainly directed to Lazlo) treat them as > human beings. In what way, exactly, have I not treated Hall as a human being? -- Lazlo (lazlo@unm.edu) From: f1sami@uta.fi (Samu Mielonen) Subject: Re: Moby's post Date: 14 Oct 1993 09:55:03 +0200 "Samu Mielonen wrote: "> You don't have to bow down before you heroes, but they are human too - "> so why don't we (and this is mainly directed to Lazlo) treat them as "> human beings. lazlo@unm.edu (Lazlo Nibble) writes: "In what way, exactly, have I not treated Hall as a human being? Ooops! Sorry, Lazlo. Going back through the original articles I noticed that the man in question was Stephen Clover. My humblest apologies. I'd still want to people to notice that when a person is writing to Usenet for the first time (which probably was the case with Moby), he may break the etiquette a few times and that his words maybe easily taken for what they were not meant to be. People make mistakes - let us not make them be afraid of making them again (because they will do make them again), but give help them to avoid the mistakes. just my two pennies worth, samu -- "you are now" From: sw17@cornell.edu (Sung J. Woo) Subject: Re: About Moby Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 21:00:57 In article <29857j$o01@clarknet.clark.net> trance9@clarknet.clark.net (Trance 9 ) writes: >From: trance9@clarknet.clark.net (Trance 9) >Subject: About Moby >Date: 10 Oct 1993 01:05:55 -0400 >OK I think people are making too much of this. >I have seen Moby play many times and I have even had him play for me at >The Future rave last year. Everybody loved him. I think if I went to see >U2 and the show was on DAT I would definitely be offended. But look at it >this way, when a performer goes to a rave they have no idea what they are >getting in to.There are so many things that can go wrong. Also consider >that he is only one person. He does play some things live. I'm not >defending Moby because he is a friend. It's because I have a lot of >respect for him as a musician and I think he has a great live performance. >Michael Meacham Folks, it's very simple. You like Moby, you go see him. You don't like Moby, don't go see him. Personally, I'm going to see Moby at the Troc at Phillie on Halloween because I think he's very, very good at what he does. Yeah, he's commercialized, but so what? I don't think his music has changed all that much since the days of Besame or Rock the House. The songs on Move EP still have that kickass hard, fast edge. And I think he's got a very good point in the fact that Moby's only one guy. I saw 808 State live in the New Order concert, and man, they sucked. Why? Not because of any DATs or shit like that, but because I don't like some of their music. Simple as that. You like the music, go and see the man behind the music. You don't like the music, stay home and go trick r treating. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Ever since I've seen your face | "It is the tale, this life of mine has gone to waste. | not he who tells it." - S.K. I was young and you were old | "If you have nothing good to and I always knew you were cold." | say about someone, say it - New Order | behind their back." - me ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *()Sung J. Woo--Cornell University--sw17@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu()* From: cs90rwr@brunel.ac.uk (Richard W Rackham) Subject: Re: About Moby Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1993 15:26:27 GMT Sung J. Woo (sw17@cornell.edu) wrote: : Folks, it's very simple. You like Moby, you go see him. You don't like : Moby, don't go see him. That isn't the argument being said : And I think he's got a very good point in the fact that Moby's only one : guy. I saw 808 State live in the New Order concert, and man, they sucked. : Why? Not because of any DATs or shit like that, but because I don't like : some of their music. Simple as that. You like the music, go and see the Fine. I like 808 State - I saw them live. They played live. I enjoyed it. I like Moby. I saw him live. He played to a DAT of his Next Is The E single and jumped on his keyboard. He, as you so quaintly put it, sucked. : man behind the music. You don't like the music, stay home and go trick r : treating. Er, I've got a cheaper alternative. You like the music, buy it and listen to it at home, or go to a club and pester the DJ to play it (usually works). Richard (cs90rwr@brunel.ac.uk) From: raver909@telerama.pgh.pa.us (Joe LeSesne) Subject: Re: About Moby Date: 15 Oct 1993 12:21:40 -0400 Sung J. Woo (sw17@cornell.edu) wrote: : Folks, it's very simple. You like Moby, you go see him. You don't like : Moby, don't go see him. I like Moby but that doesn't mean I want to shell out $$ for a live performance that consists of nothing more than him jumping/prancing around breaking things. : Personally, I'm going to see Moby at the Troc at Phillie on Halloween : because I think he's very, very good at what he does. Yeah, he's : commercialized, but so what? I don't think his music has changed all that : much since the days of Besame or Rock the House. The songs on Move EP still : have that kickass hard, fast edge. Good for you. I'm sure you'll enjoy every bit of it. If you do so be it but here's a quarter, go buy something delightful. Like a clue. : And I think he's got a very good point in the fact that Moby's only one : guy. I am only one guy (save the dancers and MC) . That doesn't mean I have to put my entire performance on tape and act like I'm playing instruments that aren't connected. Certainly if I can do a non-stop 30 minute LIVE darkness/hardacid/breakcore set that has people DANCING. Then Moby with all his money, equipment, roadies, etc can too. And DOOD, My Songz are Kick-ass harder, Party-on Garth... : I saw 808 State live in the New Order concert, and man, they sucked. : Why? Not because of any DATs or shit like that, but because I don't like : some of their music. Simple as that. You like the music, go and see the : man behind the music. You don't like the music, stay home and go trick r : treating. Better yet. If you are not going to Casper or MaskaRave come to Pittsburgh and hear some REALLY scarey sounds. Oct 30. Algorythmn 2-Holloween featuring Lenny Dee from Industrial Strength records spinning the scariest tracks in the world. And a *live* performance by 1.8.7 (me) guaranteed to shiver ye tembers... Joe -- -<><><><><><><><><)-]187-Phat_Beats_For_Phat_Cities-(><><><><><><><><><><><>- | Sub.bass.Frequency.Percolator || ---------------------------------- From: raver909@telerama.pgh.pa.us (Joe LeSesne) Subject: Re: About Moby Date: 15 Oct 1993 13:22:40 -0400 Sung J. Woo (sw17@cornell.edu) wrote: : Folks, it's very simple. You like Moby, you go see him. You don't like : Moby, don't go see him. I like Moby but that doesn't mean I want to shell out $$ for a live performance that consists of nothing more than him jumping/prancing around breaking things. : Personally, I'm going to see Moby at the Troc at Phillie on Halloween : because I think he's very, very good at what he does. Yeah, he's : commercialized, but so what? I don't think his music has changed all that : much since the days of Besame or Rock the House. The songs on Move EP still : have that kickass hard, fast edge. Good for you. I'm sure you'll enjoy every bit of it. If you do so be it but here's a quarter, go buy something delightful. Like a clue. : And I think he's got a very good point in the fact that Moby's only one : guy. I am only one guy ('cept for the dancers and MC). That doesn't mean I have to put my entire performance on tape and act like I'm playing instruments that aren't connected. Certainly if I can do a non-stop 30 minute LIVE darkness/hardacid/breakcore set that has people DANCING. Then Moby with all his money, equipment, roadies, etc can too. And D00D, My Songz are Kick-azz harder, Party-on Garth... : I saw 808 State live in the New Order concert, and man, they sucked. : Why? Not because of any DATs or shit like that, but because I don't like : some of their music. Simple as that. You like the music, go and see the : man behind the music. You don't like the music, stay home and go trick r : treating. Better yet. If you are not going to Casper or MaskaRave come to Pittsburgh and hear some REALLY scarey sounds. Oct 30. Algorythmn 2-Holloween featuring Lenny Dee from Industrial Strength records spinning the scariest tracks in the world. And a *live* performance by 1.8.7 (me) guaranteed to shiver ye tembers... Hey and if you come, Sung, I might just break something. ;) Joe -- -<><><><><><><><><)-]187-Phat_Beats_For_Phat_Cities-(><><><><><><><><><><><>- | Sub.bass.Frequency.Percolator || ---------------------------------- From: bbehlen@soda.berkeley.edu (Brian Behlendorf) Subject: Re: About Moby Date: 17 Oct 1993 00:20:35 GMT In article , Sung J. Woo wrote: >Folks, it's very simple. You like Moby, you go see him. You don't like >Moby, don't go see him. We're not necessarily disappointed in Moby because we don't like his music; I loved GO and the Instinct dance comp even before alt.rave had ever been created. We're disappointed because he doesn't seem to care about his fans or give them any sort of credit or intelligence. Well, he's coming here with Orbital and Aphex Twin and guess during which act I'll be lounging in the ambient room.... >Personally, I'm going to see Moby at the Troc at Phillie on Halloween >because I think he's very, very good at what he does. Yeah, he's >commercialized, but so what? I don't think his music has changed all that >much since the days of Besame or Rock the House. The songs on Move EP still >have that kickass hard, fast edge. >From all we can tell, "what he does" is jump up and down and thrash instruments. And like I said before, it's not that his music has gotten bad or anything (though I like the Instinct comp MUCH more than I like Move) For those at home keeping score, I saw the Orb last night on the first night of their opening tour. OH MY GOD is about all I can muster out of myself to describe it. The music, the lights, even the cheesy mirrors pointed abstraction rotating in the middle of the stage... now THAT was a show, a performace. They had live drummers, a live bass player, and Alex spent his time above two turntables, a sampler, and an effex box while Thrash manipulated the mixer. Sure, maybe some of it was on DAT, but there was definitely a LOT that was not, and each song was a twisted cookie of their original versions. Now THAT is what I admire. Brian ***** A couple of weeks pass... ***** From: trance9@clark.net (Trance 9) Newsgroups: alt.rave Subject: MOBY SPEAKS OUT Date: 4 Nov 1993 23:28:10 -0500 RE: NEGATIVE RESPONSES TO MY LIVE/DAT POSTING. THANKS FOR TAKING THE TIME TO RESPOND. I'M SORRY THAT SOME OF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I DO, THAT IS, OF COURSE, YOUR PREROGATIVE. IT SEEMS THAT SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO'VE SEEN ME PERFORM ARE ESPECIALLY UPSET AT MY USE OF DAT FOR PARTIAL PLAYBACK. OH WELL, I GUESS WE JUST HAVE DIFFERENT IDEAS OF WHAT MAKES A SUCCESSFUL PERFORMANCE. I COULD PERSONALLY CARE LESS IF SOMEONE IS HITTING START ON A SEQUENCER AS OPPOSED TO START ON A DAT MACHINE JUST AS LONG AS THE PERFORMANCE IS GOOD. (AND, FOR THE RECORD, I DON'T JUST HIT START ON A DAT MACHINE - I HAVE LIVE KEYBOARDS, A FULLY FUNCTIONING OCTAPAD, LIVE GUITAR, LIVE VOCALS, AND A LIVE PERCUSSIONIST WITH A FULL PERCUSSION SET UP. I USE DAT TO REPRODUCE SOME THINGS THAT WOULD BE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO REPRODUCE 'LIVE'.) I THINK THAT JUDGING A PERFORMANCE SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF WHETHER THE MUSIC IS BEING GENERATED 100% LIVE IS PARTICULARLY ARBITRARY. IT ALSO SEEMS TO ME THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO PERFORM 'LIVE' (OR WHO HIT 'START' ON A SEQUENCER AND WATCH THE PRETTY LED'S) AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE USE OF DAT ARE JUST INSECURE PEOPLE WHO ARE TERRIFIED OF ACTUALLY PERFORMING. IT ALSO SEEMS TO ME THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT 'LIVE' VS. DAT A) DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MAKING MUSIC BUT CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE EXPERTS AND B) ANAL RETENTIVE FUCKS WHO WOULD BE BETTER OFF WRITING CRITICAL ANALYSES ABOUT EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER RECORDS. CAN'T YOU JUST RELAX AND ENJOY YOURSELVES? DANCE/TECHNO/RAVE CULTURE IS NOT ABOUT SITTING AROUND AND BEING UPTIGHT AND JUDGMENTAL. IT IS ABOUT DANCING, BEING UNINHIBITED, AND BEING OPEN TO NEW THINGS, WHICH IS WHAT I TRY TO PRESENT IN MY PERFORMANCES. JUST BECAUSE SOME OF YOU ARE TOO SCARED AND ANAL TO HAVE A GOOD TIME DON'T CRITICIZE THOSE OF US WHO ARE HAVING A GOOD TIME. PEACE AND RESPECT TO THOSE WITH OPEN MINDS, MOBY IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS AND I AM SURE YOU WILL, E-MAIL THEM TO ME AT trance9@clark.net MICHAEL MEACHAM From: eiverso@cms.cc.wayne.edu Subject: Re: MOBY SPEAKS OUT Date: Fri, 05 Nov 93 00:11:02 EST trance9@clark.net (Trance 9) writes: f*cking typical thoughtless response. too bad. I guess you're afraid of something. --Eric From: 2609cowend@vms.csd.mu.edu ("David Eschatfische") Subject: Re: MOBY SPEAKS OUT Date: 5 Nov 1993 05:39:54 GMT > IF YOU HAVE ANY COMMENTS AND I AM SURE YOU WILL, E-MAIL THEM TO ME > AT trance9@clark.net So...did Moby specifically request his diatribe to be posted in all caps? David Eschatfische 2609cowend@vms.csd.mu.edu ----------------------------- From: b242smil@utarlg.uta.edu (George M. Smiley) Subject: Re: MOBY SPEAKS OUT Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1993 05:44:00 GMT trance9@clark.net (Trance 9) writes... >RE: NEGATIVE RESPONSES TO MY LIVE/DAT POSTING. >....IT ALSO SEEMS TO ME THAT A LOT OF >THE PEOPLE WHO PERFORM 'LIVE' (OR WHO HIT 'START' ON A SEQUENCER AND >WATCH THE PRETTY LED'S) AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE USE OF DAT ARE JUST >INSECURE PEOPLE WHO ARE TERRIFIED OF ACTUALLY PERFORMING. IT ALSO SEEMS >TO ME THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT 'LIVE' VS. DAT A) DON'T >KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MAKING MUSIC BUT CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE EXPERTS >AND B) ANAL RETENTIVE FUCKS WHO WOULD BE BETTER OFF WRITING CRITICAL >ANALYSES ABOUT EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER RECORDS. CAN'T YOU JUST RELAX AND >ENJOY YOURSELVES? DANCE/TECHNO/RAVE CULTURE IS NOT ABOUT SITTING AROUND >AND BEING UPTIGHT AND JUDGMENTAL. Hmm, what is wrong with this argument ? First we have Moby making highly generalized judgements about his critics and then we have Moby telling us that rave culture is not about being judgemental. A wee bit hypocritical. I think he left out choice c) paying consumers who know what they want and know when they are not getting it. I am neither a music maker 'know-it-all' nor an "anal retentive fuck" but I do know that when I go to a show that is billed as 'Moby performs live' I expect a little more than banging in time to the beat on an octapad. (which we were not even lucky enough to witness last time you rolled through Dallas) >IT IS ABOUT DANCING, BEING >UNINHIBITED, AND BEING OPEN TO NEW THINGS, WHICH IS WHAT I TRY TO PRESENT >IN MY PERFORMANCES. Oh really ? And what new things did you deliver at the show I went to that I hadn't already heard on my CD player before ? Absolutely nothing. >JUST BECAUSE SOME OF YOU ARE TOO SCARED AND ANAL TO >HAVE A GOOD TIME DON'T CRITICIZE THOSE OF US WHO ARE HAVING A GOOD TIME. >PEACE AND RESPECT TO THOSE WITH OPEN MINDS, >MOBY Oh I had a real good time -- at the Orbital show ! At least they changed things up quite a bit. First Ambient and now this prententious crap, my money goes elsewhere. Hint to Moby: the customer is always right. - George From: laura@usl.com Subject: Re: MOBY SPEAKS OUT Date: 5 Nov 1993 11:06:24 -0500 Oh my god, I can't believe after the last roasting he got that Moby is going to try again. In article <2bckoq$gd3@explorer.clark.net> trance9@clark.net (Trance 9) writes: >RE: NEGATIVE RESPONSES TO MY LIVE/DAT POSTING. >IT SEEMS THAT SOME >OF THE PEOPLE WHO'VE SEEN ME PERFORM ARE ESPECIALLY UPSET AT MY USE OF >DAT FOR PARTIAL PLAYBACK. No, I don't care that you were using a DAT at your Hallowwen 1992 Maskarave 1 performance at the Sound Factory in New York City. (Hell, my ex-boyfriend's band used to use a DAT too. They would of course play lots of stuff live over it, it worked out pretty well.) What I did think was WEIRD however was that on that particular night there were no cables coming out of the back of your Octapad, yet you were banging on it a bit with your drumsticks. I was standing about 4 feet from said Octapad, right against the stage at the front of the audience. Now, I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that maybe your roadies or the sound crew forgot to plug it in, but darn did that look VERY odd. And I do know what a MIDI cable looks like by the way. I've hauled and helped set up enough gear for friends to be sure of it. >(AND, FOR THE RECORD, I >DON'T JUST HIT START ON A DAT MACHINE - I HAVE LIVE KEYBOARDS, A FULLY >FUNCTIONING OCTAPAD, LIVE GUITAR, LIVE VOCALS, AND A LIVE PERCUSSIONIST >WITH A FULL PERCUSSION SET UP. I USE DAT TO REPRODUCE SOME THINGS THAT >WOULD BE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO REPRODUCE 'LIVE'.) Yes, I heard this is what you had on the current tour. More power to you. Adding live guitar and vocals really does serve to punch up a studio-bound medium. For example, I saw Xymox when they toured back in 1989, I was in Austin Texas and saw them at Club XS. I was afraid they'd suck because they are soooo studio-bound what with all their synths and processed vocals and all, but they brought along a live guitarist, a real live drummer, and an extra keyboard player and it made a world of difference. I was really impressed, they sounded great -- a different, quite full sound from their studio work. So anyway, I'll agree that your current tour/set-up is a great way to approach doing techno live. I would have gone to your show to check it out for myself, but frankly none of the acts except Vapour Space excited me enough to shell out the money for a ticket. Oh well, maybe next time. And I'm glad the Octapad is in working order. :-) >IT ALSO SEEMS >TO ME THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT 'LIVE' VS. DAT A) DON'T >KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MAKING MUSIC BUT CONSIDER THEMSELVES TO BE EXPERTS >AND B) ANAL RETENTIVE FUCKS WHO WOULD BE BETTER OFF WRITING CRITICAL >ANALYSES ABOUT EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER RECORDS. Well, your assumptions are just plain wrong. (a) your audience -- especially your NET.audience here in alt.rave -- is a LOT more knowledgeable than you have given us credit for (and frankly it is downright INSULTING some of the generalizations you have made about us) and (b) some of us LOVE thinking about and closely examining the music. It is our way of getting inside it. And think of it: without thought, criticism, and examination, there is no growth. >CAN'T YOU JUST RELAX AND >ENJOY YOURSELVES? DANCE/TECHNO/RAVE CULTURE IS NOT ABOUT SITTING AROUND >AND BEING UPTIGHT AND JUDGMENTAL. IT IS ABOUT DANCING, BEING >UNINHIBITED, AND BEING OPEN TO NEW THINGS, WHICH IS WHAT I TRY TO PRESENT >IN MY PERFORMANCES. I enjoy myself GREATLY. I dance my ass off. I buy LOTS of records (like $70 a week, on vinyl, too). I DJ (and I don't give a shit if you've never heard of me, I get plenty of gigs and have LOTS of fun -- which to me is all that matters). I help plan parties. And I'm *not* the only person who reads alt.rave who does all this. So don't tell me we're being uptight and judgemental. We are making "rave" happen in our own backyards, doing it for ourselves rather than having some techno-master tell us how to do it. >PEACE AND RESPECT TO THOSE WITH OPEN MINDS, Is this lip service or do you really mean it? If so, it might help if you stopped making insulting generalizations about your audience here on alt.rave. Let us love the music in our own ways: if that means analysing it, so be it. If that means dancing to it, so be it. A number of us do both. (Well, I've probably just destroyed any chance I'll ever have of "making" it as a techno DJ due to flaming Moby, but you know something: if "making" it means I have to kiss up to someone who so grandly tells us we are anal, missing the point of "rave", and otherwise don't understand, then I really could care less.) Laura From: Lane_Dunlop@mindlink.bc.ca (Lane Dunlop) Subject: moby contrite post Date: 18 Nov 93 08:13:33 GMT i am making this post for moby. i was the tour manager on the nasa tour and he has asked me to pass this along to you. it was written a few days ago, but i have not had access to my account until today. dear friends, if you'll notice this post is in lower case to suitably represent my humble and contrite disposition. it's not easy being hated so much, but i guess that i asked for it. to clear the air, my keyboards, guitar, octapad, and percussion have all been live on this tour. just thought that i'd let you know. maybe i've changed and the rave scene has changed and perhaps we're no longer compatable. oh well. a lot of your responses were hurtful, but if the roles were reversed i probably would have said the same things. see you later. moby -- Lane lane_dunlop@mindlink.bc.ca